On this “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan” broadcast, moderated by Margaret Brennan:

French President Emmanuel MacronSyrian President Ahmed Al-SharaaGary Cohn, IBM vice chairman and former director of the U.S. National Economic Council

Click here to browse full transcripts from 2025 of “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan.”

MARGARET BRENNAN: I’m Margaret Brennan in Washington.

And this week on Face the Nation: As world leaders gather in New York for the United Nations General Assembly, we will talk exclusively with two of them.

Plus, the Federal Reserve cuts interest rates by a quarter-point. What does that signal for the economy?

With Russia and Israel intensifying their offensive efforts in both the war in Ukraine and the Israel-Hamas conflict, we will preview a crucial week ahead, as President Trump heads to his first U.N. meeting of his second term.

French President Emmanuel Macron tells us why France and other U.S. allies will recognize Palestinian statehood, despite strong opposition from the U.S. and Israel.

Plus, we traveled to Syria for an upcoming 60 Minutes piece and spoke to the country’s new president, Ahmed al-Sharaa. He will be the first Syrian president to address the U.N. in nearly 60 years. We will tell you why he’s such a controversial figure.

Finally, former White House economic adviser Gary Cohn will join us to talk about the cooling labor market, tariffs and more.

It’s all just ahead on Face the Nation.

Good morning, and welcome to Face the Nation.

Most of our conversation with French President Emmanuel Macron was about his plan to end the war in Gaza. You will see that in our next half-hour.

When we spoke with him Thursday at the Elysee Palace in Paris, we asked him about NATO scrambling jets for the first time in the alliance’s history to shoot down Russian drones that had crossed into Poland and Romania. The day after we spoke, three Russian warplanes crossed into Estonia too.

President Trump was asked about the incident in Poland 10 days ago.

(Begin VT)

DONALD TRUMP (President of the United States): Could have been a mistake. Could have been a mistake. But, regardless, I’m not happy about anything having to do with that whole situation.

(End VT)

(Begin VT)

MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you believe that these incursions could have been a mistake, as President Trump has suggested?

EMMANUEL MACRON (French President): Very clearly, Russia is a destabilizing and aggressive power in Europe. They increased during the past few weeks the attacks against Kiev and killing a lot of civilians.

They destroyed official buildings of the Ukrainian government, but as well premises of the U.K. government, of the European Union. And, at the same time, during the same weeks, they violated the Polish and the Romanian air.

There is no mistake. There is just a project which is to destroy the maximum territories of Ukraine, to have a victory in Ukraine, and just to highlight what they want, the weakness of NATO.

(CROSSTALK)

MARGARET BRENNAN: NATO says they’re still investigating. They are not as certain as you seem to be…

PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: No. I’m not saying…

MARGARET BRENNAN: … that Russia did this intentionally.

PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: I just say this is not totally – I – this is not a specific point. If we had a situation where they were declining or decreasing the attacks against Kiev and – and on the battlefield, I could accept this argument.

My point is to say, it’s largely beyond that. My point is to say, look at what they did during the past few weeks. So, I sincerely believe that your president was committed and is committed to make peace in Ukraine.

And he engaged. He took the risk to make a summit with President Putin in Anchorage. And – and he asked for negotiations. And I think he’s right.

But, at the same time, I have to – just to recognize that there is no clear willingness of President Putin to be sincerely engaged in such a move, because, as we were working on a diplomatic way, as we were trying to organize bilateral, trilateral, quadrilateral summit, the Russians were increasing the assaults in Donbass, but not just in Donbass, intensified provocations on one side and attacks on Kyiv on the other side.

So I just look at the facts, and your president is as well looking at the facts. So, now what do we do? We have to increase sanctions against Russia, but we have to find the way to precisely put more pressure on Russia to bring them back at the table.

In parallel, let me insist on one point. When we came to Washington, D.C., a series of European leaders with President Zelenskyy, we took a commitment. We will work to provide to Ukraine security guarantees. And we delivered. A few days ago here in Paris, we gathered what we call the coalition of the willing.

You have 30 countries working together in order to provide the day-after peace security guarantees to Ukraine. So we have all these elements now with an historical commitment of the Europeans who provide the security guarantees to Ukraine. What we need now is Ukraine to be at the table with Russia and negotiating what the peace agreement could be on territory, on security guarantee, on the escalation, on recovery, et cetera.

(CROSSTALK)

MARGARET BRENNAN: And you don’t see any evidence of Russian interest? I mean, it’s been more than a…

PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: So, now we have to step up, and we need political, military and economic surge in order to bring them back at the table and to negotiate.

MARGARET BRENNAN: It’s now more than a month since that Alaska Summit, that big risk you said President Trump took. When he’s been asked, so why not put sanctions or secondary tariffs on Russia, he points back here at Europe and the consumption of Russian oil and gas that still takes place.

I know Hungary and Slovakia, for example, continue to use it.

PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: This is true. And we are fixing it. And we had discussion with Ursula von der Leyen. And she made great work with her teams to fix that.

But let’s be honest. This is very marginal. This is not a key driver today. We decreased by more than 80 percent the consumption of oil and gas. And I can tell you, because we were not the most impacted as a country because we were less dependent on this oil, oil and gas coming from Russia.

But we have to finalize, to finish the job. This is true. But now it’s clearly much more that when we are to do – what we have to do. We – we have to step up our support to Ukraine, and we have to provide the way to better resist to the new attacks on Kiev and civilians.

MARGARET BRENNAN: What’s the delay on the sanctions or tariffs then?

PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: As soon as possible. If it depends just on me, tomorrow, but it doesn’t just depend on me.

So I hope – I think we have to react collectively. If you want my – my strong view, I think it’s very important. I think we all agree we want peace. We all agree the problem is Russia, because they don’t want peace. So now we have to increase the pressure to convince Russia to come back at the table.

MARGARET BRENNAN: The U.S. has not contributed fighter jets to that new effort that was just recently announced after the drone incursions. The supreme allied commander is an American.

But does that signal something to you, does that concern you that the United States isn’t more muscular here?

PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: No, I’m not concerned or worried about that.

I want to say that the NATO secretary-general worked very hard, and we all gathered and exchanged information with the Polish prime minister and the Polish president in the hours right after this – what happened. And, for instance, U.K. and France stepped up. And we sent fighters.

But it’s fine. We were in a situation to do so, and we are totally credible. But, at the same time, look at what the U.S. is doing in – on the eastern flank of NATO. You are a very strong contributor and reliable partner. So I don’t want to – to diminish this role and your commitment.

And – and I think your president was very clear about as well his commitment to NATO. But I’m totally in line with the fact that the Europeans have to step up. I have defended for years the fact that we need more independence, more strategic autonomy in Europe. And we need a stronger European pillar.

(End VT)

MARGARET BRENNAN: A year ago, if Syrian President Ahmed al-Sharaa had tried to come to New York, he would have risked being arrested. The U.S. had a $10 million bounty on him because of his past connections to the Islamic State and al Qaeda.

Al-Sharaa turned against those groups years ago.

(Begin VT)

(CHANTING)

(End VT)

MARGARET BRENNAN: In December, he led the rebel forces that toppled Syrian dictator Bashar al-Assad, who used bombs and chemical weapons against his own people.

(Begin VT)

(PRESIDENT AHMED AL-SHARAA SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

(End VT)

MARGARET BRENNAN: Last week, I went to Syria and spoke with al-Sharaa for 60 Minutes. He accused the Assad regime of destroying entire communities and displacing 14 million people. He said foreign investment is desperately needed to rebuild.

In June, President Trump temporarily waived some economic sanctions to help Syria recover. But Congress, the U.N. and European nations would have to permanently lift more sanctions to draw long-term investment.

On Capitol Hill and in foreign capitals, there are people who don’t trust Ahmed al-Sharaa. In New York, he hopes to reintroduce Syria to the world and perhaps spend more time with President Trump.

(Begin VT)

MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you want to meet again with President Trump when you’re standing on U.S. soil?

AHMED AL-SHARAA (Syrian President) (through translator): President Trump took a big step towards Syria by lifting the sanctions with a quick, courageous and historic decision.

He recognized that Syria should be safe, stable and unified. This is in the greatest interest for all countries of the world, not just Syria. I believe the answer is yes. We need to discuss a great many issues and mutual interests between Syria and the USA. We must restore relations in a good and direct way.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Many of the officials that I spoke to about you describe you as a pragmatist. Other skeptics say that you change to meet what you need to be in that moment and that’s important to understand who you are and the direction you’re taking Syria in.

Are you saying that you are just a completely changed man?

PRESIDENT AHMED AL-SHARAA (through translator): I don’t entirely agree with the description of pragmatist, because, in Arabic, it has some negative connotations.

The point is, let’s look at what’s happening now, regardless of what was said in the media. Today, we have really saved the people from the oppression that was being thrust on them by the criminal regime. And we have restored hope for the people who are refugees or internally displaced, so they can return to their homeland.

We supported the people who were bombed with chemical weapons. We also confronted ISIS. We expelled the Iranian militias and Hezbollah from the region. All of these noble acts we took in Syria should have been the role of the international community. But the international community was unable to free a single prisoner or break the siege on a single town where people were starving to death.

The international community failed to deter the regime from using chemical weapons. So I don’t believe we should be standing accused at the defense table, but we should be the one asking others, why did you stand silent as these terrible crimes were taking place in Syria?

MARGARET BRENNAN: You believe the world failed Syria and now the world should help rebuild it?

PRESIDENT AHMED AL-SHARAA (through translator): Of course. And I believe the world must not be complicit again in the killing of the Syrian people by slowing down or preventing the lifting of sanctions and preventing them from reconstructing their nation.

Anybody who stands against the lifting of sanctions would be complicit in killing the Syrian people once again.

(End VT)

MARGARET BRENNAN: More of my interview with President al-Sharaa will appear on the new season of 60 Minutes.

And regarding that Russian incursion into Estonia on Friday, President Trump said this morning he would help Poland and the Baltic countries if Russia continues with its escalation.

Up next, former White House Economic Council Director Gary Cohn will join us.

Stay with us.

(ANNOUNCEMENTS)

MARGARET BRENNAN: We turn now to a look at the U.S. economy.

Gary Cohn was the head of the White House National Economic Council in the first Trump administration.

Good morning. Great to have you back.

GARY COHN (Former Director, White House National Economic Council): Good morning. Thanks for having me.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So, it finally happened. The Federal Reserve lowered interest rates by a quarter-point, which was expected. So, rates are now in this range of 4 to 4.25 percent, lowest level since 2022.

The president had said all this was overdue. What changes now?

GARY COHN: So, look, I think the Fed gave us a lot of important information this last week. As you said, they started down the path of cutting interest rates, going to 4 – to 4.25.

They also gave us their outlook. So, the 17 governors gave us their projections to where they think interest rates are going. So that plot that they put out shows that, overall, they believe that interest rates will be cut two more times over the course of this year. Now, it’s not 100 percent clear because the committee is divided.

There are about seven members of the committee that do not want another cut this year, but there are 10 members of the committee that want at least two more cuts, and one wants more than two cuts. So that averages out to two cuts this year, which would take the federal funds rate – and it’s important to understand it’s the federal funds rate – would take that down to 3.6 percent for the – for year-end.

Well, what is also important is, the committee was fairly unanimous. I think people were worried about the independence of the Fed. I think the Fed clearly showed themselves to be independent thinkers. They took into account all of the economic data, and they came out with a – projections that made sense based on what is going on in the economy today.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So, when rates go lower, money gets cheaper to borrow, essentially.

GARY COHN: Well…

MARGARET BRENNAN: But what does it actually mean for consumers?

GARY COHN: Yes and no.

So, what the Federal Reserve sets is, they set the federal funds rate. That’s the overnight rates that banks charge each other to borrow on a secured basis. It has nothing to do where – with where American consumers borrow money.

Unfortunately, American consumers borrow money on more of the five-year, the seven-year, the 10-, and the 30-year rates, because that’s where automobile loans, credit card loans, student loans, and mortgages are indexed to. Those interest rates are not determined by the Federal Reserve. They’re determined by the open market.

Those rates, in fact, after they cut rates earlier this week, went up a little bit. That said, they are down over the last few months, but those rates do not automatically go down when the Federal Reserve cuts rates. They have more to do with the market. And it’s a supply-demand situation that determines those rates.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So, one of the other things the Fed highlighted here is that the labor market is – quote – “really cooling off.”

That’s what Fed Chair Powell says.

GARY COHN: Yes.

MARGARET BRENNAN: The administration, the treasury secretary says, data is bad. They’re not seeing that in the jobs numbers.

So, which is it? What’s happening here?

GARY COHN: Well, the chairman went out of his way to talk about the dual mandate that the Fed has. The Fed has two requirements that they’re supposed to run interest rate policy off of. One is called stable prices, which means 2 percent inflation. The other is full employment. Full employment is exactly what it sounds like.

The chair said, look, we are going to have to deal with the full employment part of the equation, even though we still have inflation in the system. So the Federal Reserve itself and the Board of Governors admitted that we are having a declining job market. And we see that. The data over the last three or four months, we have gone from creating well over 100,000 jobs a month to creating less than 50,000 jobs a month.

It may be temporary. It may be quite temporary, but the reality is, we have seen the job market degrade. We have also seen companies announce an enormous amount of CapEx and – capital expenditures that’s going to come into the system.

I think it’s interesting to take a step back and look at what’s going on in the world today. I do think that we have seen companies cut back on the amount of employees they have. When you take companies, and you put them in a very difficult environment, and you increase the cost of input costs – and inputs have been going up because of tariffs. They have been going up other reasons.

And they’re not able to raise prices to the final consumer. The one lever they can pull to make sure they keep their margins intact is, they can cut down on the cost of labor. We came out of a tough situation in COVID, where companies were actually afraid about being able to attract and retain people. So they were hoarding labor.

So we went from a hoarding labor situation to a situation today where companies are being very aggressive about managing their expenses. And the one expense they can manage is the cost of labor. So they’re letting their labor force decline naturally as people retire out of the labor system. And we’re seeing that in the data.

And I think it’s clearly showing up. And the Federal Reserve recognized that in this – in this week’s action.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But when you ask the administration about this point, they will say, well, productivity is going to increase, and there are these technological shifts that are happening, so this data is distorted.

Are you speaking specifically about tech, or are you saying across the board?

GARY COHN: I’m saying across the board.

I mean, we are – we have seen across the board. And we see anecdotal evidence of this. I have seen and I have heard it directly from corporate CEOs in every business line that they have gone out of their way to cut their human capital overhead.

So, just the data for Q2 was pretty – pretty interesting. Corporate revenues rose about 6.3 for Q2, and corporate profits rose close to 12 percent. The way you do that, unless you’re raising prices on the consumer – and we haven’t seen a lot of prices go up to the consumer – is, you have to cut something out of the expense bucket.

The one thing they’re cutting is, they’re cutting labor costs. We have seen it in the U.S. data. We have seen it in the private data. And we have seen it in the anecdotal data.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So the president signed an executive order on Friday that I want to ask you about, because you have this role at IBM and some insight into tech.

The order is going to impose a $100,000 one-time fee for visas granted to foreign workers, highly skilled workers, H-1B visas. “The Wall Street Journal” is reporting that this caused, like, a panic, because there wasn’t a lot of detail, at, like, Apple, and Google, and Microsoft.

Did it cause a panic at IBM?

GARY COHN: Well…

MARGARET BRENNAN: I mean, what’s going on?

GARY COHN: The – the – I think it caused a panic over the weekend because people weren’t sure what was going on with the existing H-1B visas.

It’s been cleaned up over the weekend. So, at this point, there’s not a panic in the system. Everyone who’s got an H-1B visa understands their status and understands how it – how it’s – how it’s going to work. I actually think this is a good idea.

If you understand the H-1B visa program in the United States, historically, it has been a lottery system. So companies have turned in for these visas, and then the U.S. government lotteries them off. If you’re now telling a company, look, you need to spend $100,000 to get one of these visas, you’re not just going to ask for a visa and put a name in the lottery unless that is a highly skilled person who you need who you cannot hire in the United States.

This visa program is meant for high-skilled labor where you cannot hire that person in the United States. So if that’s what it’s used for, ultimately, we’re going to bring high-skilled people into the United States. It’s going to help grow our economy. And that’s good for all of us.

MARGARET BRENNAN: We’ll see.

Gary Cohn, thank you for your insights, as always.

We’ll be right back.

(ANNOUNCEMENTS)

MARGARET BRENNAN: We turn now to another conflict that will be in the spotlight during U.N. week, Israel’s war against Hamas and the increasingly bleak outlook for its conclusion.

CBS Sunday Morning’s Seth Doane reports from Tel Aviv.

(Begin VT)

SETH DOANE (voice-over): It’s an exodus with nearly nowhere to go. More than 400,000 people have fled Gaza City, vehicles piled high with belongings. Leaflets offer the warning to move, but provide no earthly options. Transport can cost thousands.

In its effort to destroy any refuge for Hamas, Israel has been leveling buildings. Its airstrikes are leaving kids dazed too.

(WOMAN SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

SETH DOANE: “This is injustice,” this woman said. “We are tired. Every day, there is death.”

This war has killed more than 65,000 people in Gaza, half of them women and children, according to health authorities in Gaza. And a United Nations commission says Israel is committing genocide. But Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu remains undeterred, likening Israel to a “Super Sparta” of the Middle East…

(MINISTER BEZALEL SMOTRICH SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

SETH DOANE: … while also this past week Israel’s ultra-nationalist finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, spoke of economic advantages to come, saying Gaza offers a real estate bonanza, adding that they have already done the demolition phase.

The full extent of the suffering in Gaza is not something most Israelis see in the news here, yet, according to several recent polls, the majority of Israelis want the war to end and want the hostages returned home. As pressures mount from the outside, there are also protests coming from within.

YOTAM VILK (Israeli Reservist): So many people in Israel are…

SETH DOANE: Yotam Vilk, who penned an op-ed for The New York Times, was among about 150 Israeli Reservists to sign a letter in 2024 saying they’d refuse to report to serve.

YOTAM VILK: I’m willing to pay the price needed for what I understand is currently fighting for the state of Israel.

SETH DOANE: But you’re not fighting now.

YOTAM VILK: I am. This is me fighting for the state of Israel. The same moral stand that brought me to show up on the 7th of October to defend the people of Israel is the same moral stand that I’m – that I – that brought – like, that I’m doing this.

(End VT)

MARGARET BRENNAN: Our Seth Doane reporting from Tel Aviv.

We will be right back.

(ANNOUNCEMENTS)

MARGARET BRENNAN: Local authorities say that 100,000 people are expected in Glendale, Arizona, today for the memorial service of Charlie Kirk. President Trump, Vice President Vance, and other administration officials will pay tribute to the conservative activist. And security is at a high level, similar to what’s in place for the Super Bowl.

You can watch full coverage on our streaming channel, CBS News 24/7, starting at 2:00 p.m. Eastern.

We will be right back with a lot more Face the Nation, so stay with us.

(ANNOUNCEMENTS)

MARGARET BRENNAN: We’re back with a look at the diplomatic efforts to resolve the Gaza conflict. Most countries in the world recognize the right of Palestinians to their own state, with the U.S., Canada and France joining them this week. President Macron explained his decision. It’s a move the U.S. is opposed to.

(Begin VT)

EMMANUEL MACRON (President of France): We have to preserve the condition of a political perspective for everybody. So, we would announce a recognition that which is the beginning of a political process, and a peace and security plan for everybody.

So, right after this – this recognition, we have a first phase, which is, I would say, is the emergency phase. Ceasefire, release of all hostages, and, third, restoring the humanitarian roads and stabilization of Gaza.

You know, the second package, which is the day after, we will revert into (ph) that, how to organize gathering (ph) in terms of governance, security, and construction.

And third package, a perspective of the two states. But recognizing a Palestinian state today is the only way to provide a political solution to a situation which has to stop.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But you are not making the release of the hostages a condition before recognition? That comes after?

PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: It will be – it will be first the requirements very clearly before opening, for instance, any embassy in – in Palestine.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So, Secretary of State Marco Rubio said this is a reckless decision. That’s the word he used. He said, “it gives Hamas little incentive to actually start diplomacy to release the hostages.”

Why do you disagree with that sequencing?

PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: I think probably this is an excessive word, and I disagree with this approach. Why? Because the objective of Hamas is absolutely not to create a Palestinian state. The objective of Hamas is to destroy Israel, to convince a maximum number of people that they have no chance to have peace and stability in precisely a Palestinian state, and – and to kill the maximum number of Israeli people. And this is why. If we – we want to stop this war, if we want to isolate Hamas, the recognition process and the peace plan which goes with this recognition process is a pre-condition.

So, my first point is to say, I don’t answer (INAUDIBLE). I don’t mix the expectations of Hamas. Hamas is just opposite (ph) by destroying Israel. But I recognize the legitimacy of so many Palestinian people who want a state, who are a people, they want a nation, they want a state, and we should not push them toward Hamas. If we don’t offer them a political perspective and such a recognition, the unique answer would be security, and they will be completely tapped by Hamas as a unique (ph) option.

My second point is, thanks to the recognition, and thanks to the diplomatic move we launched, we started to isolate Hamas because we, at the New York declaration, which was voted, as you know, by 142 countries, we gathered all of (INAUDIBLE) states, all of the leaders of the regions to work closely with us to precisely dismantle and disarm Hamas. To know that we’re not engaging in such a move.

Now, we gathered all these states, all these people who work closely with us in this move. So, I think this is why we can create the condition of a concrete action first to give this right to the Palestinian people, second, to isolate Hamas from the rest of the Palestinians in the whole region and precisely build security.

But let me tell you something which for me very important in this context. Israel had wonderful security results against Hezbollah, Hamas, top leaders, and they managed to – to – to neutralize (ph) a lot of top decision makers of (INAUDIBLE). They did it. This is their merit.

But in terms of fighting against Hamas, this is a failure today. They start

MARGARET BRENNAN: What is a failure?

PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: Because they – they killed all of the key leaders. This is a success. But at the beginning of this war, you had more or less 25,000 Hamas fighters. The Israeli army killed probably half of them. But Hamas managed to recruit the equivalent. You have as many fighters as at the very beginning, which is the best evidence of the fact, if we want to dismantle Hamas, the total war is not the answer because it’s just killing the credibility of Israel. And, by the way, weakening and killing our own credibility if we don’t make a move as the one we are organizing.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But you just pointed to something that Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu would say, well this is why we need to continue until we get rid of every Hamas member. You’re saying, you can’t kill that idea. You need to provide a different idea?

PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: Exactly. But this is so – this is the whole perspective. And look at the situation, not just by the way in Gaza, but everywhere in the region. Hamas was clearly not backed by a lot of people before the 7th of October. If you took the pulse (ph) in Gaza, but in all the countries of the region, they were very low in all the polls (ph). Today, the level of support is much higher because they are making the mistake, in fact, to reduce all of the perspective of the Palestinians to Hamas. What we have to say is, we want the dismantling of Hamas. You had the success. There is no more top leaders. We want to isolate them. We want to – to bring everybody working with us to dismantle the Hamas, but recognizing this right to have a Palestinian state.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.

PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: So, a diplomatic challenge. This is just giving another channel and – and offering a political way in isolating Hamas. So, I think there is no future with the option which would be just, let’s kill the maximum number of Hamas people because they just recruit others and others because each time they launch this type of operations, they kill so many civilians that they are just destroying their own reputation and credibility and they are creating an unsustainable framework of security in the whole region.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But since October 7th, popular support in Israeli for a Palestinian state has also declined. Prime Minister Netanyahu has been opposed for a very, very long time. And now he says that, just look at those attacks that day. If you allow for any kind of Palestinian state, it will be a launchpad for terrorism. I mean that is his argument, that this shows you can’t allow for the safety and security of Israel if there are two states. Why is he wrong?

PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: First, I want to – I want to say that the 7th of October was a total trauma for everybody in – in our country here because we had so many French people being killed during the 7th of October terrorist attack launched by Hamas. And – and it was, for us, one of the biggest terrorist attacks against our own fellow citizens. But we – we did share and we do share the pain and the suffer of the Israeli people and so many families. And for me, the top priority remains the release of hostages.

And I met very regularly families of – of hostages. And I have to say that what they live is unbearable. And I – I had the opportunity to met with them. Yeta Hargiz (ph) mother and so many of them. And what they describe is – is absolutely unbearable.

But I consider that if we want precisely to build a sustainable peace for Israel, it’s a – and for the Israeli people, a political process and the recognition of a Palestinian state, if the state recognizes the right of Israel to leave and defend itself is demilitarized, has security forces with the vetting process by Israel, with obviously a proper governance and reformed governance, and – and is precisely – we have a series of reform, which are a part of the process.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But that that’s it, right? You are talking about recognizing the Palestinian Authority, with some governance over the West Bank. Already was working with Israeli Security Forces. But Hamas came to power through the ballot box in the first place.

PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: Look, it’s – if we are honest, it started (ph) different. And this is why I think – let’s accept the fact that a lot of people have worked very hard to kill the credibility of the Palestinian Authority in Gaza years ago.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Uh-uh.

PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: And Hamas appeared as a – precisely a sort of alternative option.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Uh-uh.

PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: But (INAUDIBLE) attacks were launched by Hamas, not by Palestinian Authority. And if we say all those living in Gaza, and all those backing the Palestinian state are de facto parts of Hamas, there is no end to this war, except that you will kill everybody. And this is – this is terrible.

So, we have to recognize that the Palestinian Authority has to be reformed, the governance is not satisfactory today. We need a new –

MARGARET BRENNAN: The leader is nearly 90 years old.

PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: You have a new – we need a new Palestinian Authority. But let’s just remark and please notice with me that thanks to the work of mission process (ph) we launched. For the first time for many years, we got 9th of June a series of clear commitments from the Palestinian Authority. They refused him (ph). Now, the – the reform, a new vice president being elected, a reform of the education program, (INAUDIBLE) of the (INAUDIBLE) program as well with the monitoring by a U.S. (INAUDIBLE).

So, we launched a series –

MARGARET BRENNAN: And they denounced the attack. They denounced October 7th.

PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: And for the very first time there were –

MARGARET BRENNAN: Twenty months later.

PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: This is true, but for what? Because we made this move.

So, the recognition is the way (INAUDIBLE) to reengage and bring them back and to table. And my point is to say, let’s isolate Hamas. And let’s focus on the dismantling of Hamas from a military and a political point of view. In order to do so, we have to reengage with those who can be, I would say, a political achievement for the Palestinian people. And this is why the recognition is so important. And if we revert to West Bank, one of the key element which triggered my decision to announce in July the perspective of – as a recognition for the 22nd of September, is a vote of the Knesset. When the Knesset decided to start the (INAUDIBLE) again, in West Bank, it was the best evidence of the fact that they don’t want to – to fight against Hamas. There is no Hamas in West Bank. They just want to destroy the existing political bodies and the possibility of two states. And I really believe this is a terrible mistake for Israel itself because, in doing so, they just kill any other perspective that (ph) war.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes. But when you – I understand the argument you are making, but it has put you at direct odds with the Trump administration, who argue that your decision to make this recognition announcement, along with all these U.N. members, that it, in fact, kills the diplomacy they had underway. They said they were working to get, for example, the tax money from the Israelis to hand back over to the Palestinian Authority. That they were doing practical things on the ground to help Palestinians.

Secretary Rubio said that West Bank division you were talking about with the settlements, he drew a direct line to your recognition. Why do you think they’re blaming you for that?

PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: We – we – we are closely coordinated with the U.S. administration when we speak about the ceasefire and the release of hostages. We were always in close coordination with the secretary of state or key – key – President Trump’s advisers in order to work with Qatar, Egypt and Israel on the release of hostages, a ceasefire.

But your administration is focusing on the day after. And what we propose is a full-fledged plan where we have first the emergency package. So, let’s deliver the release of hostages, ceasefire and – and humanitarian access.

The day we have that, we start the day after. And I think we are very convergent with the work which is being done by – by your administration. What we want is a de facto governance in Gaza with clearly a sort of transitional administration, including the Palestinian Authority, excluding, clearly, Hamas, but with a vetting process of Israel, and an association of all the neighbors. We have a security package in this – in this day after approach, which is, let’s scale up the training of the policemen and security forces of the Palestinians. And –

MARGARET BRENNAN: Who will do that?

PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: We – we are already are doing that – are doing so. Many country (INAUDIBLE). It does exist. But we need to scale up. And in parallel, we proposed, and we worked very closely with the United Kingdom and all the leaders of the region precisely to offer a military, I would say, an international force to be deployed in Gaza with a U.N. mandate, which is a unique framework to be defended, and – which could be legitimate to assist and – and back, I would say, this policemen and security forces. And –

MARGARET BRENNAN: But you know Israel does not trust the United Nations at all.

PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: No, I – this is a U.N. framework, but this – first they would have a vetting process for (INAUDIBLE), and it would involve Jordan, Egypt, and some others – some others are ready as well to finance. But, obviously, it needs to be made in close coordination with Israel.

And in the second (ph) package of – is a core element is a dismantling of Hamas. There is no other option. If you want to fix the situation, to disarm Hamas, and precisely to demobilize so many fighters, to organize what we call a DDR (ph) process, which is very familiar to all the experts in this type of situation. And this is in this day after for Gaza, in the security package, as we can organize such a DDR vis-…-vis Hamas and to be sure that Hamas will never be involved in the Golans (ph) but sets – Hamas will be disarmed, dismantled, with some key people to leave Gaza and some other to be deradicalized and the weapons to be taken.

In order to do so, you need clear security forces here. You need international forces to be here. And, obviously, we have the (INAUDIBLE). On that, I think there is a strong alignment with the United States.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.

PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: My point is the recognition and the process we launch with that is the only way to bring with us on this track all the neighbors and key countries in order to deliver such a package. And – and look at the situation. Today, when Egypt, when so many leaders of the region are not uncomfortable with what is being done, you need to re-engage them. And this is exactly what we are doing.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So –

PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: But my point is to see, if we don’t have this full package, the day after is impossible because today, de facto, you are accepting the displacement of population in Gaza City. How do you want the day after to be possible if you displace thousands of people?

MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, exactly on this point. When you say day after, that means when the war ends and some kind of rebuilding happens. What you’re talking about with the Trump administration is this idea of having Palestinians leave Gaza, by choice, they say, but some would say that is a step towards ethnic cleansing. In fact, an independent commission set up by the U.S. concluded Israel has a, quote, “intent to destroy Palestinians in Gaza as defined by the genocide convention.” Does France agree with that report?

PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: No, we don’t qualify as a genocide who’s happening because it is not a political statement. This is judges (ph) or the end – or the historians to qualify a genocide by a series of evidence and a clear jurisprudence and – and clear elements.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So, you reject that report and that finding?

PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: No, I don’t reject the report. This is not my point. My point is, it should not – it should not be a political debate. What’s happening is clearly a lot of civilians are being killed de facto underground, and the project is to displace people. So, I think this is a big mistake. And this is where I try to convince your administration that if we agree on the day after, and we want this de facto authority, this security package, the dismantling of Hamas and the reconstruction (ph), let’s work on the – on the current day.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.

PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: If you accept de facto, Israel to displace its people, you will never see the day after. And by the way, I look very carefully at all the plans being shared by your administration or shared by experts working for your administration, they always reiterate, let’s work and be together for Gazans. It means that they are ready to preserve and protect Palestinian people because Gazans are those who are living in Gaza. But if the precondition of such a plan is to push them out, this is just a craziness. So, we – we should not be, for the credibility of the United States, for the credibility of France, we cannot be implicitly or explicitly complacent with such a project because such a project, we know it. And by the way, all of the security expert, even in Israel, are very clear on the fact it will be a humanitarian disaster. And this project will kill the possibility of the day after.

So, we have to be very explicit on the fact that attacking civilians just to get a few – a few terrorists and a few fighters is clearly not acceptable, but displacing people in order just to take a territory, which is not in the hands of – of – of Israel, in order to prepare the day after, is not just a tad crazy,, but unacceptable for all of us.

(END VT)

MARGARET BRENNAN: The final part of our interview, when we come back.

(ANNOUNCEMENTS)

MARGARET BRENNAN: France has one of the largest Muslim and Jewish populations in Europe. And there has been a significant rise in the number of anti-Semitic acts around the world. In France, it’s most than tripled recently.

(BEGIN VT)

MARGARET BRENNAN: The U.S. ambassador to France, Charles Kushner, the father of the son-in-law to the president of the United States, Jared’s father, he published an article, and I know you’ve – you’ve read it, saying France is not dealing with anti-Semitism in France. He said, “not a day passes without Jews assaulted in the streets, synagogues or schools defaced, or Jewish-owned businesses vandalized. Your own interior ministry reported anti-Semitic incidents, even at preschools.

Do you accept this criticism as – as genuine and valid?

PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: Not at all. I think this is a mistake. And – and an unacceptable statement for somebody who is supposed to be a diplomat. This is my –

MARGARET BRENNAN: Unacceptable statement?

PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: Yes. Never a French ambassador would be allowed to do so.

So – and so you are a person who wants to express freely (ph), fine. If you are a diplomat, you have to follow the role of diplomacy. And I’m not the one. This is (INAUDIBLE) to be the ambassador of the United States in France. But the taxpayer money is not properly used to finance this – this kind of statement.

So, this is not a speech letter (ph) – word of an ambassador. This is unacceptable. Now the matter is much more important. And the matter about anti-Semitism is, for me, one of my top priority. I was the first president in France to adopt a definition of anti-Semitism, making it the equivalent of anti-Zionism (ph). And – And I have always been very engaged against anti-Semitism. We’ve worked very hard during the past few years in order to precisely reengage, have faster sanctions, and I never neglected this topic. And we took –

MARGARET BRENNAN: But you know in the U.S. sometimes people hear criticism of Israel as anti-Semitic. And you are saying it’s different?

PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: No, but – no. My point is to say, you can – you cannot reject the existence of Israel. Anti – anti-Zionism (ph) is unacceptable and is anti-Semitism. But it doesn’t mean that you are not allowed to be in disagreement with the government of Israel, otherwise we will become crazy. I’m sorry, but I – I want to fight very hard against anti-Semitism. I – I’m totally (ph) against any anti-Zionist (ph) speech. But I do endorse to be in disagreement with Prime Minister Netanyahu and some of his ministers on many topics. It doesn’t make me an anti-Semitic.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Has this hurt your relationship with the U.S.?

PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: No, I don’t think so.

MARGARET BRENNAN: No.

(End VT)

MARGARET BRENNAN: The complete interview is on our website and our YouTube page.

We’ll be back in a moment.

(ANNOUNCEMENTS)

MARGARET BRENNAN: That’s it for us today. Thank you for watching. Until next week. For “FACE THE NATION,” I’m Margaret Brennan.

(ANNOUNCEMENTS)

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